This episode brings you an inside look as Craig Evans and host Joey Romero take you behind the scenes of the I Survived Real Estate 2024 event. Craig opens up about the decision to continue this impactful tradition, sharing its significance for the community, the Norris Group, and his family.
Together, they dive into this year’s updates, including the exciting addition of interactive Q&A sessions, and revisit memorable moments like Bill’s candid reflections on balancing business and family life. Key discussions explore understanding sub-markets, pivoting with purpose, and leading with clarity over emotion.
Craig also shares his optimistic outlook for real estate in 2025, highlighting the potential impact of interest rates, inventory shifts, and immigration reforms.
This episode isn’t just a recap—it’s a heartfelt reflection on legacy, leadership, and what’s next for the real estate world.
In this episode:
- Joey Romero welcomes Craig Evans, CEO of The Norris Group
- Continuing a Legacy:Â Craig reflects on the significance of preserving The Norris Group’s legacy and its impact.
- Leadership Insights:
- Bill’s vulnerable moment during the investor panel and its powerful message.
- The role of transparency and vulnerability in leadership and business success.
- The importance of efficiency and adaptability in navigating challenges.
- Staying objective as a leader and avoiding emotional decision-making.
- Looking Ahead:Â Key economic drivers shaping real estate in 2025.
Episode:
Narrator  Welcome to The Norris Group real estate podcast, a show committed to bringing you insights from thought leaders shaping the real estate industry. In each episode, we’ll dive into conversations with industry experts and local insiders, all aimed at helping you thrive in an ever-changing real estate market. continuing the legacy that Bruce Norris created, sharing valuable knowledge, and empowering you on your real estate journey. Whether you’re a seasoned pro or a newcomer, this is your go-to source for insider tips, market trends and success strategies. Here’s your host, Craig Evans.
Joey Romero  Welcome everybody to The Norris Group real estate podcast. For the last six weeks, we’ve been running the I Survived Real Estate 2024 we hope you enjoyed it. And we thought today we’d we’d do something a little different and do a little recap show and get Craig’s thoughts on this. So welcome Craig Evans to the show.
Craig Evans  Good to be back on this side of it for a little bit.
Joey Romero  Yeah. So, Craig in 2023 we told everybody when Bruce was retiring that this was going to be the last I Survived Real Estate, but obviously we came back in 2024. Why did you bring it back?
Craig Evans 01:28
You know, Joey, honestly that was a, it was a process that for me, taking The Norris Group over. A lot of it was really more about the legacy of what the company had been about before. And I know that, two things, this was an event that was very near and dear to Bruce, and also Aaron’s heart, right, for the charity side of that and what it meant to the community. And, you know, my heart on the legacy piece of why I did the transaction with Bruce on taking over The Norris Group, and I just didn’t feel like it would be right one to just end it right. I felt like, if we’re going to really carry on a legacy, that’s one of the ones that we wanted to continue and to see how we can grow that and even just make it better and better every year.
Joey Romero  What does that word “legacy” mean to you, personally?
Craig Evans  Well, you know, as a dad, I never thought a lot about legacy until I started, you know, probably the last 15 years or so of my life, right? And it was about the time that we started having children, and I started looking at, well, I’ve done all these things in life and, and that’s great. Maybe that’s a quote, “name” for me, but, but what does that mean to those that I leave behind, right? Whether, whether it’s my family, the all the people that work in our company, the community, what we stand for in the community, and so legacy for me, really, about 15 years ago for me and Stephanie, my wife, you know, we it really started taking on a new role about what do we do within this world and the time that we’re given on this earth to do something that stands the test of time after we’re gone, what do we do that really matters in life? And this is one of those things as my companies as a whole, but especially this event, that what it is meant to the community and to people in the past, that legacy of that ,of doing something that matters, I felt like that was the thing that needed to continue, because it matters. You know, how many of the the Make-A-Wish kids have we ever had to the event, right? We’ve never seen them. We’ve seen pictures, right? But we don’t get to see the effect that we actually have on people’s lives. But knowing that we do things that changes someone’s life, I think that’s some of the most impactful and the best stuff you can do on this earth, you know.
Joey Romero  Yeah, I think that’s what the Norris group has been known for. You know, as they follow Bruce, changing the trajectories of people’s lives is probably the most impactful thing that we can do, and that’s what we hope to continue to do as a company as a whole. So how was it, was it hard to prepare for this event?
Craig Evans  Oh, well, you know, you and I spent a lot of time going through stuff, because, you know, how do you ever become good enough to walk behind Bruce Norris, right? Exactly that it, right? So I, you know, I knew that I can’t compete. I can’t I don’t need to try to be Bruce Norris. I just had to figure out how to be myself. But I knew that there were expectations of all the hundreds of people walking into that room about what that had been in the past, right? So I knew there was big shoes to fill.
Joey Romero  Well, in that regard, the format changed. We did the format a little bit different than that. Why was that important to you?
Craig Evans  I think we had a kind of a moment that we’ve got to say, okay, while Bruce and them have done this 17 years, I needed people to see that, hey, while I want this legacy to go on, I’ve got visions for what I want this to be, and I wanted to start crafting and shaping what that looks like.
Joey Romero  One of those things that was the change in the format we, were accustomed to. Bruce just standing at a podium and giving us the economic update. You guys did it more as a Q and A, you know, almost a fireside chat like the the rest of the panels, was there anything that Bruce told us in your interview that surprised you?
Craig Evans  Well, you know, Bruce and I had been talking for several months about the things that were coming up, so I don’t know that there was things he told me that surprised me. One of the things that I think I was glad to hear him talk about that, I think is most often missed, you know, we were looking on for the most part, on a national scale of what the charts read. You know, we were looking between California and Florida. And then we talked about several other if you want to call them sub markets, you know. But really not other sub market. I mean, you know, Dallas is not a sub market, you know, but as he started to talk about sub, if you want to call them sub products, and the sub market of of how, you know, set points, you can have too much of a good thing sometimes. And I was glad to hear him say that. And it maybe, if I want to say surprise, that was probably the only thing that really surprised me that he talked about was because most people don’t want to talk about that process that, hey, you know. But the reality is, if you’ve got too many of, I don’t know, a 1500 square foot home in a certain mile radius and the absorption rate is not going to cover that. That’s a key that a lot of investors don’t focus on, right? So I loved that he did push that out, and was encouraging people to look at, listen, what is it that we’re buying, what is it that you’re putting on the market from an investment standpoint? Because I think that’s a big key that a lot of times people miss, you know, is understanding it’s not just about three beds, two baths, attached, detached, one car, two car, garage, you know, it’s not just about that stuff, but you gotta dig deeper in some of the markets to see, are there different sub categories of product that are going to do better than others. And sometimes you can have too much of a good thing in that sub market, you know.
Joey Romero  So, not to take anything away from any of the other panels, the investor panel was my favorite. And I think, the feedback that I’ve gotten from a lot of people, you know, they got tons of takeaways. Did you have a favorite moment from that panel?
Craig Evans  Wow, I think the moment, although I think it probably maybe shocked his wife a little bit. I think the moment that bill started to get very raw and transparent about his past and what the business almost did to his family because of only focusing on Drive to me that was very impactful, you know, in settings like that, most people want to they just want to talk about the positives and look at me and look how great we are, and I love the vulnerability of someone in that status to be able to stand up and say, Hey, because I wasn’t perfect either, and I almost lost it all you know, over what I was trying to build.
Joey Romero  Just to recap, for folks, just in case you did you missed that episode, what Craig is talking about is Bill admitting to entering into a covenant with his wife about the way he was going to run the business, and then talking about how he didn’t renew that covenant year after year after year, and as the business grew and required more of Bill, he just took it for granted, and didn’t really understand how much he had taken it for granted until she asked him for a divorce. And that was, like, just the realest thing. And you see, like, Bill, like, up there, almost crying. And it was weird, from the standpoint I was sitting next to his wife when he did it, like, I wasn’t, like, I. Just kind of making my ways, and and she was just like, you know, just intently, you could just seal, you could just tell that they didn’t discuss this at all. And it was just the realest moment I think I’ve ever seen at I Survived Real Estate, you know. And so I, I thought that was probably one of my favorite moments, too, because in this world of the internet, Facebook, Instagram, you always think everybody’s just killing it and everybody’s just got nothing but good times. But what we wanted from this panel was to tell people that you’re going to make mistakes and it’s okay, as long as you don’t give up, and you keep moving forward and you keep learning. I think that was one of the biggest things that this panel in particular gave all of us. Now you started by asking…
Craig Evans  Joey, the thing about that for me that hit me on that was Stephanie never asked me for divorce, but we had just been through that a year earlier of like, Hey Craig, we didn’t, we didn’t talk about that we’re going to push this hard, you know. And so I loved the reality is, Joey, it was comforting knowing I’m not the only guy in the room that’s made that mistake, you know, and I think that’s a lot of value that groups like what The Norris Group fosters, and that type of community is showing that, listen, one, we’re all flawed at times, right? We’re not perfect people. But man, knowing that you’ve got people that either you can learn from and, or like, and I’m not the only one that’s done that kind of bone headed move, right and, and, yeah, that was just a very real moment for me. It was tough to stay up there and not choke up thinking about everything was going on with him and his family in the past, and knowing that had been my situation as well, not to that extreme. That was a very powerful moment that I just, I didn’t expect that, and I was grateful that he was willing to be that vulnerable.
Joey Romero  You just touched on something that made me think of you know, we were just at the Collective Genius event just a little over a week ago, and you talked about not being the only one right now, yep. And that’s, that’s almost exactly what the Collective Genius is there to do, is, you know, when you’re part of this community, which will next week, when we interview the CEO, we’ll learn a lot more, but…
Craig Evans  …Jason today.
Joey Romero  That’s what’s great about that community, is that, you know, if you have a big inefficiency or something, you’re not doing great. There’s somebody in that room that is and they’re willing to help you get through that, share resources and help you be successful in in any way they can. So with that being said, you you asked right off the bat in about inefficiencies, and you got three different answers, but all of them were focused on two things, finding things that investors aren’t willing to do, and then number two, being prepared to pivot when the rest of the industry catches up. What are your thoughts on that?
Craig Evans  You know, there’s so much that we do in our businesses. You know, in running the amount of stuff that we do, it, efficiency is the key to what we do, right? And we don’t always succeed, right? I mean, there’s days we’re like, man, did we? Did we just graduate from kindergarten in this class? I mean, what are we doing, right? So I was anxious to hear, you know, other guys that are extremely successful in their own in their own rights, and what they do as to how they handle efficiencies, you know. And it was so interesting to see and hear the aspect of the understanding of the time to pivot, right? Because, that was the one thing that we’ve been looking at for a year and a half of understanding how to how to maneuver the markets, as they’ve been doing the last two years. And I was so excited to hear them, discuss that and talk about that, and what that meant to their business from a sustainability, excuse me, and from an efficiency standpoint, to know whether it personnel, whether it’s business model, whatever their standing was right Mark de Lautour that was on the panel that night. He and I had talked some, and have talked since about a lot of stuff and and that’s one of the things that we’ve talked about, is even the understanding of pivoting with with personnel. You know, when you’ve got people that are such a vital part of what you do. Sometimes it’s super difficult to kind of segregate those two and say, Well, wait a minute, I love this person. Care deeply for them. They’ve been great in their role, but my business has now grown to a point to where it’s no longer efficient having that person in that role, right? And how do we pivot that person into something else that benefits them and the company? And that’s just one component of it, but, but I think understanding that is just a key factor in running a business, especially with the last, you know, the last four years of what we’ve been through with one administration the prior years of that. What we’re about to go into, there’s a lot of things that you’ve got to manage as a leader, to look at efficiencies, and I think that understanding how to pivot is so key. And I was very glad to hear those guys talk about that and their experience within pivoting, you know.
Joey Romero  Well, they both talked about understanding and knowing the numbers and being completely honest with what you’re seeing and not getting emotional about it. That’s when the leadership conversation really steps in. What stood out about their opinions on leadership?
Craig Evans  Well, alright, so that you just said a word, getting not getting emotional about the numbers, right? I don’t care whether you’re a brand new investor or brand new business owner, a brand new widget maker, whatever it is, right? Or if you’re seasoned for 30 years, I think one of the hardest things to ingrain in and develop self discipline is not being your own hype man, right? It’s super easy to be that own hype man. And and everything we see, and the ideas and all this, every one of them is great, and every house is great, and every, this is the best deal we’re ever going to put together. And all of a sudden, you know, we don’t look at the reality of it, and these numbers don’t pencil out. We’re not willing all the time to look at what the real numbers tell us, right? So I go back to Bruce. The data doesn’t lie, right? I love that about Bruce. I’d never thought about it that way. But when Bruce first taught me about looking at data, don’t ever look at it and try to prove a point. Let the data tell you what it is, and you got to be able to accept it. So I think that key, that you said, the emotional component, I think that’s one of the hardest things sometimes to work through and get over but, to maintain that discipline is a is a huge key to success.
Joey Romero  I don’t know who it was. I think it might have been Bill, but he was talking about, we’re going to almost live and die in the margins.
Craig Evans  That’s right.
Joey Romero  And that leads me to the to the next question.
Craig Evans  In tying that back, those are the hard things that leaders have to do. If you’re going to be a good leader, you’ve got to be able to step outside of that realm and recognize it. I think that’s what, I think both those guys portrayed that and showed that very well that night, that part of ,that’s the reason they’re successful in what they do, is because they disassociate from the emotion when it comes to that leadership side, because they understand that. Listen, sometimes it’s going to be making hard decisions, you know.
Joey Romero  Bill talked about principles, strategies and tactics, and he talked about the willingness of an investor to exit a little too early rather than just get stuck in that scenario that you just talked about. Now, how hard is that when you’re a new investor?
Craig Evans  Yeah, I think the two phases of a new investor are, you know, we hear so much. There’s so many people that are writing books and doing the seminars and the webinars about how to get into real estate and and, you know, one of the biggest things that tell me, gotta get deals going, gotta do deals, gotta do deals, gotta do deals. And you do have to do deals. But doing the wrong deal, just because it’s a deal going doesn’t mean we’ll never make it the right deal, you know. And so that front end basis for the new investor, it is a big key, but understanding when to exit it is right behind it is that second number that most new investors struggle with. Just like my buddy, you know that he’s, that’s, it’s not real estate. It was the market. But they look at it, they say, boy, I’ve had great cash flow for this time period. And that they may not want to exit that product, but they miss the fact that, hey, this product is now about to be 12 years old, and my cap x is starting to increase because I gotta have a new roof put on next year. And so, you know, a lot of times the newer investors aren’t looking at the fact that, yeah, I’ve cash flow great for two years. But if that thing’s only cash flowing, you know, $300 a month and our $400 a month one year isn’t going to pay for a roof, right? So, understanding those things and looking at one, when they buy, but two, when to exit, those are keys for young investors. Are they moving too soon? Are they not moving soon enough, right? That the whole exit strategy is, I believe, where a lot of young investors struggle to know what that is.
Joey Romero  I want to talk about the economic panel a little bit. This year was dominated by two major factors. You know, inflation, but the interest rate conversation really dominated the conversation. Do you think that’s going to be the biggest driver of real estate in 2025?
Craig Evans  So me, personally, I mean, you know, we just had Fed rate dropped another 25 basis points yesterday. I don’t know that we’re going to see a big move on the market because of that at this point, but I think there’s going to be three things that will be big drivers for 2025. I do think the first will be interest rates, depending on where they go. And there’s a lot of things that back into that, as far as what the Fed does, and how that relates, obviously, to bonds. You know, the Fed really changed under Powell. The Fed changed the way they operate and what they’re looking at, and they’re Powell’s main focus, and how he was driving the Fed when he came in, was really focusing on the aspect of unemployment first and then inflation second, right? We’re in an aspect where he’s driving down inflation, but we’ve still got really good numbers on employment for the most part. So I think he’s got a tricky job ahead of him over the next year again, I think he’s out in May of 26 so this is his last full year, so I think that’s going to be a big play of what he does, all in line with what is this administration., you know this administration is laying out some lofty goals of what they want to achieve. Last Friday, I think the 30 year fixed was 5.875 was the lowest rate I saw last Friday, yesterday, even after the rate drop, FHA rates, lowest rate was at 5.5 was the lowest I saw. So, you know, when you’re looking at those things and you’re saying, hey, you know, we’ve come from an eight down to now, we’re touching into the fives. I know the average rates, you know, because there’s other lenders that are up in the sixes. But I mean, you know, you’re starting for the first time with no buy downs to see numbers in the fives. You know, Bruce and I’ve been talking for years, you know, the last two years now, once we start seeing stuff in the fives again, products going to move right? Well, that starts to free up that, that liquid capital that people have to spend. I still think we’ve got a the, let me back up, Joey and answer that rates are going to be number one. I think that’s going to be the number one. I think that the second thing that will drive that will be inventory status, right? What’s the inventory look like on the market, and the amount of it? Because right now, it looks like we’ve got tons of it in certain markets, but as soon as you start to see optimism happening, because there’s an emotional component to buying real estate, whether you’re buying for investments or you’re buying as Main Street buyers to live in, there’s an emotional component. And when they feel like the economy is turning around. Rates are a little bit lower, so I can now afford that payment. They want to jump in, right? They’ve been waiting to get out of the apartment, or they’ve been waiting to change locations in the country. I think that’s the second component. Me, personally, I think the next component that is going to affect the real estate market will actually be immigration. Because, based on the amount of inventory and the demand that’s out there, I think immigration is going to have a key play in that based off labor, so.
Joey Romero  Okay, so do you agree that the panel talk basically, Hey, forget about ever seen rates of two and 3% do you think that we’re gonna find a sweet spot, you know, going forward for the next 10, 20, years of five to six?
Craig Evans  Yeah, I really do. I think, I really think that next decade is fives, you know, I think that five to six is really a spot wherethat’s a that’s actually a better rate than historically we’ve had over the last four decades, you know, you get into the fives. That’s a pretty good rate historically, you know, now I will say this. I don’t think that twos and threes are coming back with the Aster. You know, the only component on that, that I believe, is depending on how the Fed handles things and how the new administration handles immigration.
Joey Romero  I’m very skeptical of, you know, we haven’t had any meaningful immigration legislation for what, 30, 40, years, my dad was part of that, you know, he got, you know, he was able to become a citizen because of some of that. But that was in the 80s.
Craig Evans  Right.
Joey Romero  You know, we’re talking about, there hasn’t been anything meaningful in forever. So I, I’m just on a, on a more of the skeptical side of that somebody’s got to want to do it and, and I just don’t see the fervor for it.
Craig Evans  Well, and I think that’s, yeah, it’s, it’s definitely going to be a tricky situation, but at some point somebody’s got to be bold enough to stand up and do it. And it’s not going away, you know, that we keep kicking that can, and it ain’t going away, and we got to deal with it, you know, so.
Joey Romero  Yeah, were you surprised at all about your question of energy, with how they responded? Were you surprised?
Craig Evans  I am surprised that there aren’t more people standing up in the aisle screaming and yelling about where we’re at as a country with energy. You know, there is, I will say this, I believe that there is zero, absolutely zero, chance of changing the basis of what materials and products and things cost if we don’t address our energy crisis. It is physically impossible to lower the cost of products when we’re still paying the amount that we pay to get them to a site. Case in point, you know, Joey, I was talking to my dad two days ago. You know, my dad’s in his 80s, right? And I love my dad to death. Love my parents to death, right? I talk to them every day, and my dad was all frustrated, like Dad, what’s going on? He said, I went and bought my, you know, went, bought your mom and I, you know, our dinner, and I got us the same two hamburgers and a french fry that we share. And I couldn’t believe it. It’s so expensive. So how much was it? So it’s $12 for two hamburgers and the fry. I said, Okay, dad. He said, But Craig, he said, the thing was, he said, five years ago, that was $4.87 he said, I remember that because that’s what I paid for years was $4.87 cent for the two hamburgers on a fry. And he said, What is that cow that more expensive, that much more expensive, right now, yeah, and it’s not the cows. It’s not the farmers. It’s like, hey, everything we touch is driven by energy, right? We can’t get a tractor into the field to to cut hay without using diesel fuel, right? It doesn’t matter. Everything we touch is driven by fuel and energy, and if we don’t fix that problem, we will never see our pricing structure of what things cost go down, you know? So, yeah, I have personally been surprised over the last several years, and on the panel a little bit that people aren’t screaming and yelling about energy, that we’re just not yelling it from the rooftops. Fix this problem, you know.
Joey Romero  Now, one of the things, one of the best parts of I Survived Real Estate always is, you know, talking to the attendees, the panelists, throughout the night, in between, you know, in the lobby, you know those great conversations, what type of feedback were you getting from the folks when you were there?
Craig Evans  Well, I will say this, everybody was so gracious. First of all, they were super excited about the transition. Everybody was very excited for me, personally, on the handoff of the company that was, that was humbling, you know, to see that. But you know, during the event, you know, I was really trying to focus on making sure that I did my role and did it to the best of my ability, right? I even screwed up the process of bringing up the reason we’re there, you know, for Make-A-Wish, and I still screwed that up. But you know, in that aspect, Joey, I think the fact that I can just sit there and laugh at myself and and not take myself too seriously, I hope that came across. But you know, better than I came up…
Joey Romero  We can always, we can always blame it on Jimmy, right?
Craig Evans  That’s right. That’s right.
Joey Romero  Blame it on Jimmy. Jimmy, you know who you are.
Craig Evans  That’s right. When you forget the the Pledge of Allegiance, come on. But you know, honestly, afterwards, when I was speaking with people, you know, I was there for 45 minutes or so afterwards, and without a doubt, the two things that everybody talked to me about that they were so excited for. They loved the investor panel. They said Craig, it felt so real, and it felt like we could really garner really great information. Not that anything in the past wasn’t good information. It was just different, and it came from a different point of view. You know, the things that kept telling me is you were bringing out different points of view that made the information fresh and exciting, that…
Joey Romero  I think it led to the most takeaways, is what I think really people loved about it. They were able to get real takeaways that they can implement into their careers right now, right?
Craig Evans  And that was, listen, you and I were working until nine o’clock the night before making sure, is there anything I’m missing? Is there anything points I wanted to hit, right? And I want to make sure that our events are relevant and provide value to everyone that walks through the door, whether they’ve never done their first deal or whether they got a billion dollar portfolio, doesn’t matter, right? Anywhere in between, I want to make sure that there’s value and relevance out of all of our events that we do, and I that was the thing that I got out of it is they were really pleased with how things were shifting, because it gave them the ability to get a lot of value out of what we did.
Joey Romero  Do you think, you know, we’re almost close to wrapping it up? Do you think that 2025, will be a good year for real estate?
Craig Evans  I really do. I really do, I believe, and this isn’t about who was voted into office, right? I think there was the pent up energy of just everybody, like just the fact that the election year is over. We talked about that that night. You know that that, that, what is the history show from election years? Is it, listen, there’s always a bounce coming in, right? But I think that what was pinned, you know, kind of penting getting or getting pent up in saved energy back there, with interest rates starting to tweak and creep down, I really believe that 2025, will be a year that we look at and say, Oh, wow. We the last two years was actually the worst of it, and we made it. We’re already out of this. I believe it’s going to be a great year.
Joey Romero  Alright? Well, I’m going to close the the show, the a little recap show, by just expressing my personal gratitude for always, first and foremost, especially with I Survived Real Estate for Aaron Norris, you know, he was, he grew to be one of my best friends, my best friend, and impacted the lives of so many others, just like his dad did. I want to thank Bruce for, you know, allowing Aaron to, you know, talk him into this event. And then just grateful to everybody who still supports us, who still attends all of these events, that still listen to this show. So that’s my personal gratitude. So Craig, I’d like to give you the option, not the option, but the opportunity to express your gratitude also.
Craig Evans  Yes, we’re rounding out year one of me owning The Norris Group and and what all that means and what it’s meant. I am very humbled by the amount of people that one; tune into the show to hear this old country boy from Georgia talk about, you know, real estate and put their faith and trust in what I say. I’m honored and humbled by that and and I’m, I’m so excited looking towards 2025, with the things that we’re we’re looking to with DBL unlimited, and with The Norris Group, you know specifically there’s, there’s so many great things that’s coming, but it couldn’t have happened without the transition of 2024, and I’m just, I’m honestly, Joey, I’m honored that Bruce chose me to be his successor and take this company and and lead it into the future. I’m honored that he chose me and. So and so I’m excited to finish out this year strong and to go headlong into the future of what we do as a company.
Joey Romero  Craig, thank you for joining me as the host today, and thank you all for tuning in. We will see you next week.
Narrator  For more information on hard money loans, trust deed investing, and upcoming events with The Norris group. Check out thenorrisgroup.com. For more information on passive investing through the DBL Capital Real Estate Investment Fund, please visit dblapital.com.
Joey Romero  The Norris group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE license 01219911. Florida mortgage lender license 1577 and NMLS license 1623669. For more information on hard money lending go to thenorrisgroup.com and click the hard money tab.