Aaron Norris is joined this week by Katie Coates. She is the author of Yes Vote, the public hearing plan for developers. She has a long history of working with developers to overcome opposition, build support, and obtain approval for projects. This means she spent way too much time in city council, planning, regional, and state agency meetings to be sure. She is a creative strategist at Taylor & Co. PR based out of Southern California. She also teaches at several local Southern California universities on topics ranging from building community to crisis communications. Aaron met her in New York City many years ago as they were serving at the Public Relations Society of America. It was not until a few months ago he knew her specialty was on this, which is highly appropriate considering his research was also on this.
Episode Highlights
- What was her reason for writing her book Yes Vote?
- Who are the different naysayers who can get in the way of or stop projects from happening?
- When pushing for a project, what’s the most effective way to get the most persuasive information?
- What is one of the biggest assumptions people have in Riverside regarding zoning laws that is actually false?
- What specific triggers are naysayers using with the powers that be to try and stop projects?
- Where would you start as an outside investor to build your street credibility?
- How can you get a free copy of her book Yes Vote?
Episode Notes
Aaron has done a lot of research on affordable housing in preparation for I Survived Real Estate in September. Here, they are specifically covering the concept of creating value in the market in California where it is really hard to find value. Aaron is dealing with a lot more of the clients who are dealing with vacation rentals, shared housing, adding square footage, building new houses and small tracts, and mobile homes. Oddly enough, some things people do not think about are relationship-building and communication because they are ending up in cities that they don’t live in and don’t know the hurdles they will encounter. They have never even thought about real estate investing from this angel prior.
For these reasons, Aaron was fascinated when he find out she wrote her book Yes Vote. Aaron asked what her reason was for writing it. Katie said like Aaron, she was aware that there were so many developers in all sectors, whether small, multi-million-dollar projects, industrial, residential, multi-family, mixed sector, have opposition when they go through the planning process. Developers are not aware they are going to come up against this issue, and they are hoping they won’t. Oftentimes, they are in denial and put it off until the last minute, which is the absolute worst and expensive thing you can do.
Katie calls it falling into the pit of do-overs, delays, and dollars out the door that you will never recoup. If you do a preventative program of doing community outreach in a very special way that she coaches her own clients through, you have a better chance of getting an approval the first time as opposed to getting those do-overs. Whatever level you are at, they require these do-overs, which result in delays. This, in turn, results in a lot of money and time wasted. The do-overs can range from density reductions, setback requirements, and things that are not required by the code. You might be zoned for your project perfectly, but if the decision-makers do not have the political courage they need to give you a yes vote, they will just ask you for adjustments to your project to make it look like they are doing their job.
Katie is really talking about taking a pro-active approach before going into it. Aaron has talked with friends before who would go into a project not knowing they will have problems. The Economic Development and Planning Departments may be behind them, and a community member squeaky wheel gets involved and is the loudest voice in the room. They then turn the people who were once for the project against you. You may have very little community equity because you don’t live in the area, and they do not see it coming.
One example Aaron recently dealt with was when he was at lunch with a developer who worked all over Southern California. They talked about naysayers, and he had a different term for them: CAVE people. This stands for citizens against virtually everything. There are also the BANANAs: Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone. These are all the “not in my backyard” folks. There is a whole slew of these kinds of people, and Katie has identified the quintessential opponent in her book. She called him Melvin just to identify him easily with her clients.
Aaron also had lunch with the City of Riverside since The Norris Group got access to the one-stop shop program in Riverside. They now have people flying out from all over the country to see what they have done. The Norris Group took a project in 2006 that was land, and the developer turned it into 5 building lots. Due to what happened during the downturn, The Norris Group was sitting on the lots and was going to take up the project . They came to find out the zoning laws had changed, so what had been planned and approved by the city triggered hundreds of thousands of infrastructure improvements. They kept on giving it to engineers who did not know what to do, but they did not mind taking the check for them to tweak things.
Aaron had been very involved with the City of Riverside for the past decade and knew people in the planning department and spoken at their events about foreclosures. He contacted them and told them he was stuck and did not know what to do. He asked if he could come talk to them to get their opinion, and they said yes. They put together a group of public works, fire, housing, economic development planning. In one meeting, within 20 minutes, he basically presented the problem and they told him to do a lot line adjustment and take it back to two lots. Aaron asked himself why they didn’t do this before, and they said it was a new thing. Once upon a time, you would have to go to every department.
Thankfully, Aaron had the brand equity where they trusted him and understood his intent. A lot of people who are coming in to Riverside to develop are going to be the beneficiary of that process now, and a lot of cities are imitating it. Before the show, Aaron and Katie were talking about cities making some big mistakes. Aaron has developers in some Southern California markets who are staying clear of some cities because it is getting too political or the planning is getting so backed up that they are afraid they will lose money on projects. This could be simple residential projects that will get hung up with something political and cannot take the chance when dealing with a multi-million dollar home along the coast.
In a project like that, you have environmental concerns, neighbor concerns, and political concerns. You have everything from the NIMBYs to the political, and Aaron asked about who the different naysayers are who can get in the way. Some might surprise them, but he wondered which are the deadliest as far as the project is concerned. Katie said in her experience, after having worked in Northern and Southern California, Arizona, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Boston, and Florida, no matter what the size of the city or town there seems to be 30 people who are against everything. They will be against your small project, the larger single-family home development, the Hilton, the Hyatt, the Costco, the senior center built by the city itself. They will be against everything. You need to know, going into some communities, that you will encounter these folks and need to have some “arrows in your quiver” so you can fight against that. You will never convince them they are wrong, but you can go around them.
Aaron said being in politics locally, one of the most surprising things is that when it comes to the squeakiest wheel, council members and planning departments don’t even like them yet they somehow get what they want. Katie said the fascinating aspect to this has to do with neuro science. It is all about the visual. When those decision-makers get to the planning commission or city level or wherever they need to go to give you the yes vote, they must have the visuals that will support their decision. If they do not visibly see support in the room for their yes vote, they will turn around and delay you.
Aaron asked if this meant physical bodies in the room or letters of support. Katie said the most persuasive information is visible. This could mean people in the seats or people at the podium speaking in support of your project. It has to give in emotional appeal and very simplified in the way it is presented. It also has to be repetitive. Right now in the political environment in California, cities like San Diego have it on the ballot to ban vacation rentals across the board. You have rent control issues coming up, so to not understand even just a little bit of the political process is just deadly.
They are doing this all over Orange County too with the reduction in short-term rentals. They are not allowing them in many cities and are really limiting the ability to continue your business if this is the one in which you work. If you want a new STR, you are just not getting approval. Part of the process that might be frustrating to many is understanding that every city and county is a little bit different in the process of getting through and planning. Some projects will take you through the planning commission while some will be handled directly with your permit department. Aaron asked if she finds this frustrating, which she said not as much.
You have to keep in mind that if there is a public review portion to your project, you need to prepare for a public hearing if need be. If you can just go through the process without ever having a public hearing, that is a completely different process. If you have public review, you need to make sure you have all your ducks in a row before you go into that first hearing. You might miss your window of opportunity if you get a denial at your first public hearing. If you don’t get a yes vote, make a mistake upfront, and handle it poorly, the next phase might be much more complicated, costly, and difficult.
Aaron asked if there is a trigger point in the process, such as a variance or something over a certain dollar amount. Katie said in her experience it has more to do with the city’s process itself. When you are talking to those planning employees and staffers at the city level and finding out about the process, you need to find out upfront if you need to go to a public hearing. If that is the case, you need to start doing community outreach and building support at that moment before you even start designing. It can take a long time. The larger and more contentious the project, the more time it will take to build enough support to make a difference at that public hearing.If you talk to the planning department and staffers and they say the process does not involve a public hearing, then you are fine. If they say it involves a public hearing and then say not to worry about it and fly under the radar, this is when you step in and say you need the public review and supporters.
There are a lot of people in the network doing lot splits and building new houses. There is an opportunity to get permission to do things where this could get triggered. If you bought a property and cannot do what you thought you were going to be able to do, it could be a really costly mistake. Aaron asked if she recommends calling the planning department and asking them what they recommend. He wondered if they will tell you the hurdles, which Katie said they will know the process through which you will have to go. This never guarantees anything since sometimes there will be the circumstance where you were not set to go through the process at all.
However, some decision-maker may hear about your project and some rancor opposition to it. If this is the case, they can say they will take it right out of the planning department and have a public hearing about it. This is a circumstance you cannot prepare for ahead of time; but if you get an inkling this is where you are headed, you need to work with the city council to put off your hearing date until you get preparations completed. This means you have built community support and built partnerships in that community. They see you as a benefit for other humans, and most opposition people never do charity for other humans. They may volunteer on behalf of animal rights or call themselves environmentalists, but they never do charity on behalf of other human beings. This is where you find your supporter base.
In Riverside, a lot of people assume as long as your zoning is fine, you are fine. However, in one case a developer was going to build something quite appropriate to the zoning. Because it was close to something historic, all of a sudden they were complaining it could not be that because the vibration from the industrial spot was going to end up upsetting the historical value of a specific property. The litigation and public process was going on for a little over a year, and it got squashed. Even if you assume you are zoned correctly when building, it is good to check out the landscape. There are a lot of community and neighborhood groups that can help and where you will have really good community advocates. Some advocates only do the neighborhood stuff but don’t donate their time for other human reasons.
Aaron made a good point about the legal side of things and alluded earlier to the political side. Many developers make the mistake of thinking if their lawyer has done a good job and have had a public affairs representative meet with all the council members and got the go-ahead, then it is a go. Actually, this is not the time to say this is all you need to do. Both the legal and political process are not related to the community outreach process. They affect them, and the community process affects those other two processes, but they are not related as far as making sure you get approval at your local hearing just because your lawyer says you are good to go or you have a majority of your board members saying yes to your project in casual meetings.
What happens when you get into the public hearing is those decision-makers get cold feet and vote against the project at the very last second despite promising you they will vote yes. The reason is they do not see the support in the room. Katie’s process enables you to make sure you get people to show up at your public hearing. In many cases, she has seen people hire a public relations pro who is very good at their job, is an excellent communicator, puts together excellent materials, but are not used to closing deals or setting expectations with community members when they do the outreach. They are in the business of informing, and this is a whole different thrust. When you are a developer going after support, you really need to couch everything in a partnership term. You are a partner in the community benefiting them, and they need to benefit you back.
Katie does a good job in the book of getting down to the nitty gritty of getting into the community, what to bring, and how to set up. If you are building a single-family home on an infill lot, you may not have to go quite that far. But, it is good to at least look at it since you will learn a lot of tips just in the introduction in her book. Jim Lukaszewski talked about the contention survival manifesto, which is brilliant. Any negotiator should read those since it is all about avoiding the acute angle and building solid relationships based on transparency and honesty.
Aaron asked if there are any specific triggers in the residential space a lot of naysayers are bringing up on a regular basis that resonate with the powers that be that are stopping projects. Katie said the trend over the last ten years has been higher density, especially with lots being split and the vertical move. A lot of people are also doing these mixed-use projects, such as commercial or retail on bottom and residential on top. All of these types of changes in the residential landscape are scaring people.
The average neighbor, especially in the residential area adjacent to a commercial area, despite knowing those lots will someday be built upon and they bought their home in 1974, are still in denial that they will actually get that multifamily dwelling that will overlook their backyard. When you are in the process of going through developing and designing this land, even if it is just a triplex or duplex, you must be cognizant that people are going to feel encroached upon and betrayed and there will be an element of outrage.
Aaron asked about building street credibility, especially if you are from out of the area. If you were going to build a duplex or triplex and density is the hot topic, and you have the suspicion this will be difficult, Aaron wondered where you would start as an outside investor. Katie said from the standpoint of reaching out to the public, she would be sure assess other projects of the same type she is building and see how other members of the public responded to them. She would ask the planning department staffers if there are other projects proposed over the last couple years that are similar and what date they were presented to the decision-makers.
She would go back and look at the public hearing and hear the arguments the opponents brought forth during the public hearing. She thinks an audit of that sort can be very instructive. She would then look at the decision-makers you have right now and see who will look at your project. You would need to know if they are active with the chamber and who their circle is. Usually those people are very active on many different levels. Not only are there 30 opponents in every city, but there are also over 100 who do everything else in the city. Planning commissioners and design review board folks are really active in the town or city in which you are working. You need to start figuring out where their ties are and make contact with their friends and colleagues, so you understand who is most persuasive to those decision-makers.
If you want more information on her book, you can email Katie at katie@yesvoteplan.com. Let her know you heard the show and would like a free copy of her book. She will be happy to send it to you. .
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