President of First Commercial Capital, Gil Figueroa. Exceptional experience originating, underwriting, and closing multi-family and commercial real estate loans. Real Estate Broker since 1993 with in-depth knowledge of the apartment lending and commercial real estate and mortgage industries. Comprehensive knowledge of diverse and complex loan programs, escrow and title procedures, and loan documentation requirements. Outstanding ability in identifying mortgage loan opportunities and financial benefits for clients. Highly experienced financial analyst/wealth planner for high-net-worth individuals focused on delivering practical and effective investment strategies specifically tailored to meet investors’ financial and retirement objectives.
Excellent communicator and professional speaker with over 9 years presenting at wealth conferences and seminars. High degree of integrity and business ethics. Committed to continuous professional growth and learning.
Episode:
Narrator  This is The Norris Group’s real estate investor radio show the award-winning show dedicated to thought leaders shaping the real estate industry and local experts revealing their insider tips to succeed in an ever -changing real estate market hosted by author, investor, and hard money lender, Bruce Norris.
Bruce Norris  Hi thanks for joining us. My name is Bruce Norris and once again, we are joined by Gil Figeroa and president of First Commercial Capital. Okay, so let’s just talk about the the real estate, part of the business. So residential real estate, let’s go there first, because I’m really familiar with the numbers. So you have about let’s say, collectively, you do a billion dollars of business, you’re now doing 550,000 or a million instead of a billion. So you’re doing 45% less volume in actual volume of sales, and then you have a price decline of about 5%. So your revenue is gone down 50% for the whole industry, you can say they’re still fully employed, but that’s BS, if they have 50% unemployment. That’s literally the number because that’s the revenue cut.
Gil Figueroa  No, I agree. A lot of firms have gone under Yes. You know there’s a lot of mortgage companies that have cut employees and production is down at least 50%. I agree wholeheartedly.
Bruce Norris  Yeah. Well, I was thinking about Yeah, I wasn’t thinking about the lending side. But yeah, that’s another group of people that will be, say, exiting their office space, or downsizing. So that’s a category. So if a lender, does a lender typically do one product? So let’s say if I’m in the office lending business, am I doing apartments as well? So there’s a contagion that’s possible. Like if that side screws up, it impacts the whole?
Gil Figueroa  Pretty much. Yeah, I mean, the majority of lenders have an array of product line they lend on, but the over the last, I’m gonna say 10 years, they’ve really, you know, concentrated on multifamily. So a lot of the lenders are coming out multifamily products. But for the most part, most lenders will still do another product, maybe some retail, maybe some mixed use. So they do have, you know, product overlay. And you’re right, there isn’t contagion over office and so forth. Some lenders in a better position than others, depending on their portfolio. So it just depends, you know, where they, how aggressive they were, but I can tell you over my 10 or 20 years, I’ve yet to hear some, a lender tell me, we’re big on office. I think the last time I heard big on off was 2007.
Bruce Norris  Right. And they paid for that probably a lot.
Gil Figueroa  Right.
Bruce Norris  Okay, well, my office building would be a case in point that I bought it, it sold for a million dollars, and oh, seven years later, I bought it for 319. Sold it last year for million dollars. Now that guy’s going to be at the other end of the spectrum. And what was really odd and this is probably why lenders are careful is that the building behind me that he bought, and then bought mine was vacant for eight years. Without a tenant. That’s unbelievable.
Gil Figueroa  That’s unbelievable. Somebody didn’t do their homework.
Bruce Norris  No, no, but yeah, and that was I think that was considered an A type structure. But it never got occupied. It got sold, it still got sold at a discount eventually. So when I was looking at that going, Wow, that’s uh, that doesn’t create a lot of cash flow.
Gil Figueroa  Was in California and Florida, Bruce?
Bruce Norris  That’s in California.
Gil Figueroa  That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.
Bruce Norris  Yeah, that was crazy. So when you fund a loan, that paper is held, often by commercial lending. Local banks, that’s my, is that a local bank that’s funding that?
Gil Figueroa  Yeah, the majority of lenders we use our local banks, they’re more aggressive. We do use agency as well. And by agency, I’m referring to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. So we do use them. And the majority of loans, I think, where you’re headed with this question are underwritten based on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac guidelines, because a lot of lenders have the ability to sell season loans for premiums to Freddie and Fannie and that’s a whole other market the same way that single family would work as well.
Bruce Norris  What would be the typical length? You’ve mentioned a 10 year but that seemed like wow, that’s a special product is the more common range of time when somebody took out a loan is it more common to be five?
Gil Figueroa  Yeah, five is is the most common I would say 75 or 80%. of you know, Investors pick a five year there is three year financing. There’s there’s even adjustable financing, there’s seven year there’s 10, at 30 year product is available, you know, over a $2 million loan amount. So it is available under agency, you’re using a 30 year bond, so the pricing gets a little stiff. A lot of investors don’t use that route for the most part. I mean, I’ve probably done two in my career, just to give you an idea, but the majority I would say is five and seven year money.
Bruce Norris  Are these loans almost always variable?
Gil Figueroa  Well, they’re hybrid. So we’re talking about 30 year amortization for multifamily and office, you get into 25 year amortization. But for multifamily, it’s 30 year amortization, if I were referring to a five year product, I’m referring to fixed for five, and then hybrid. And well hybrid means we’re going to adjust to an adjustable, which is typically a six month LIBOR or a softer loan, and with a two and a half, or overspread. So that’s where you know, some danger is coming, because obviously, these are going to reprice quite a lot higher now on that reset. Again, I’m pushing investors to look at that. And if they need to be proactive and refinance prior to their adjustment period, if that makes sense.
Bruce Norris  Do they have to re qualify? Or the lender is they’ve got the position they’ve got the number goes up, but then the owner doesn’t have to re qualify again, or they do?
Gil Figueroa  That’s a great question. And that’s something that people need to know, I’m glad you asked that. Because if you read the trust deed, it doesn’t say they have to requalify. But they do have to maintain that same debt service. So by that, it would mean that if they haven’t adjusted their rents appropriately, for this product to be in, you know, approval debt service for that particular bank, they can be in essence in default.
Bruce Norris  Wow.
Gil Figueroa  So the lender can call the loan.
Bruce Norris  Right.
Gil Figueroa  Legally, if their debt service is not within, you know, their hurdle rate. So they would have to either increase rents decrease the loan amount to keep within the lenders parameters.
Bruce Norris  Is it? Is it in the lenders choice? Or is there oversight of the lender that could force not good decisions upon the lender? In other words, is there some governing agency looking at these books going? Hey, you don’t want to let this slide? You know, that’s, I’m wondering if there’s that?
Gil Figueroa  That’s a good question, probably above my paygrade. I don’t look at that. But I would assume so that it’s the same as Fannie and Freddie single family? Wouldn’t single family have that as well?
Bruce Norris  Well, usually it’s fixed. You know, this is a different world. And by the way, don’t you and I didn’t prep any pre questions, and so don’t feel one bit bad about goes, I’m really I’ve looked at this thing. I’m trying to think, Okay, where’s the possible damage path for other things? When, remember, in the residential world, when we had those movies that came out and there were all kinds of odd collateralized debt obligations? Were there were almost like bets against the outcome of the success of the loan program. And so is there commercial? Is the commercial world going to be impacted by any of that? Where somebody said, Okay, let’s, let’s bet against the outcome of that package of loans, that type of thing?
Gil Figueroa  That’s a great question. More of a Wall Street question. I don’t know what products exist to short, you know, collateral on multifamily or commercial for that extent. I’m sure after the OA debacle, there probably does exist some type of product line to be able to bet or, you know, short that marketplace, I would assume so. But that’s an assumption. I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, I guess you can short reads, you know, in other product line. I mean, I’m assuming there’s a product after oil and what happened in all way where many investors, you know, did develop that line of product?
Bruce Norris  Well, it was kind of crazy how I figured out collateralized debt obligations. I’ll just tell the story because I was having a hard time even with the concept, but at the time, my daughter got married. The when I paid for the wedding in advance, I got this mailer, and it was What if the wedding doesn’t happen? And they said, you can insure against the outcome, pay $500. And if it doesn’t happen, we get to give your 25 grand back. And I thought, you know, that’s a good, I’ll take that. But then when I filled out the application, it was really strange because it said, like, Who are you in the in the food chain? And I thought, That’s really interesting. I could literally get a roomful of people make copies of this, and I could have 100 people bet against the outcome of my daughter’s wedding. And then I could, that I could control the outcome of the wedding. That’s a collateralized debt obligation. That’s really scary stuff.
Gil Figueroa  Sounds like a Las Vegas bookie to me.
Bruce Norris  It is. It was crazy. But that when you when you started understanding the Wall Street, the Wall Street stuff that they were doing, they were they were giving triple A ratings, to paper, that was terrible. And they had their clients do one thing. And they were doing the opposite that. Unbelievable. So I guess that’s why I’m, I’m being and this is very specific to we’re thinking about systemic risk, to be honest with you. That’s what I’m trying to look at and say, okay, is this going to be a snowball? That’s a problem.
Gil Figueroa  Well, I mean, we can have two conversations, my basis of analytics go between three and six months. So it’s hard for me to kind of guide from that point on. So right now, we feel that we’re going to have treasuries in between a three and 4% for probably three or four months moving forward, kind of a sideways roll, not to say, and our analysis is showing this to be a fourth wave, which there could be a bigger wave coming up, that pushes us over the high of 4.33 on the 10. Year Treasury. I think that’s coming. I think there’s inevitable and when is the question, so we don’t know when. So you’re, if we’re having problems sustaining debt service, or bank reserves now, right. So if rates were to shoot up to four and a half, or 5%, treasury, we have more problems. I would say that’s a logical bet.
Bruce Norris  Okay, now, so. And, you know, you’re been pretty right on everything you’ve ever said about interest rates. So the 10 year T bill is about what three, two.
Gil Figueroa  I think today were 3.3. Okay, exact and today we had a CPI come out which CPI was nice and not too bad. We had only a, we had 1/10 of a number come in lower than last month. And CPI number inflation is 5%. So it’s a little softer, so it’s a little softer and inflation. The feds are looking at rents and new car purchases to be the biggest gainer on the CPI numbers right now. So rents are still pushing the envelope or feds are not happy.
Bruce Norris  But that’s a isn’t that a lagging number? I’m just curious.
Gil Figueroa  Yeah.
Bruce Norris  Okay. So that’s not a current number. That’s an accumulative 12 month number. And you keep on dropping off the high number and getting a block probably at zero over a year.
Gil Figueroa  Well, it is month a month as well. So there is an analysis month a month.
Bruce Norris  Okay.
Gil Figueroa   Yeah.
Bruce Norris  Okay.
Gil Figueroa  Yeah.
Bruce Norris  So what would be the rationale for you think they’re going to just keep raising rates, then you think the Fed is going to keep raising rates?
Gil Figueroa  No, I personally think. And right now, not only I but if you if you look at CME FedWatch, there’s what’s called a FedWatch tool. And that FedWatch tool will give you a analysis of what the potentials are for another fed hike Come, let’s say first of May, or the Third of May to be exact. So right now, that tool based on CPI numbers today, we increase the 7% chance that the Fed will not make a move. So, right now, we’re at 34% of the consensus to state that the Fed won’t make a move. Okay. Now, with that being said, we’re still 60 Plus on a quarter move for that next move.
Bruce Norris  Okay.
Gil Figueroa  So my point is we’re watching the Fed watch, I’m watching the charts. I’m watching my analysis. I think we’re going to be soft, I think we’re going to be soft for the next three or four months. I don’t think the feds are going to move aggressively, if at all, if at all, or the market is going to aggressively move itself. Because treasuries are not controlled by the Fed, so to speak. It’s an open market trading so that as the Feds moved since the last increase in October, since October, we’ve had rates going down the 10 year Treasury going down. So hence, the market has its own ability for flows and ebbs, not just fed control.
Bruce Norris  But what what you’re saying and the timeframe that you’re talking about seeing this tenure go into 4.3 to 4.5. What’s the timeframe for that? And what’s the reason it does that?
Gil Figueroa  Okay, well, I mean, frankly, money flow is the problem, you know, and that’s really what happened to the banks that became insolvent. So unless lenders create more money by lending more than the money flow problem just increases, right? So this lol in the market, this deer in the headlights with rates gumming up has the obvious reaction of slowdown, right. So if we have a slowdown, we have less lending, in essence, less money supply. So with less money supply, money becomes what more expensive, kind of just the law of supply and demand, so.
Bruce Norris  Don’t assume any of this. It’s absolutely easy for me to comprehend. It is not what last time you and I talked, I wish I had the sheet. I had a whole sheet you and I were just talking. And you were talking about what you know, now I’m writing notes. Like I had a whole page of notes. So you know, that’s just it’s really interesting. I’m trying to see how you can have an economy that’s let’s say, now it’s at five, which I think it’s going to be headed down. But the tenure is going to go up. And that’s because the supply of money is diminishing.
Gil Figueroa  Right. So when money as any product line diminishes, right becomes more what? Expensive.
Bruce Norris  Okay, I’m trying to go backwards. Now. When there’s, I’m trying to think of fear. So let’s say there’s something like, like the feds, all of a sudden goes, okay, well, we’re going to have a recession, we’re going to lower rates. Does lowering rates create more money?
Gil Figueroa  Only if more lending happens, right. Okay. Yeah. So if more lending happens, yes. I think we’re gonna see something different in the marketplace. Because I mean, I don’t know if I should put up, put this out on the radio, but the reality of fractional banking. Any bank can have a run. There is no safe bank.
Bruce Norris  Yeah. Well, it’s kind of funny, you say that, because I, we sold a residence and I had a lot of money in the bank, probably about a week before it hit the fan. And I thought, you know, it’s probably not a good idea. And I move it all. And then this happens, you know, and I’m going holy cow, you know?
Gil Figueroa  Well, you know, the first thing that happened after these banks went to, you know, had their problem is everybody shifted all their money in the big banks.
Bruce Norris  Right.
Gil Figueroa  Your question is, putting all their money in the big banks than big banks are gonna have the same problem the little banks had said they’re gonna be to liquid, in essence, right. So, so they’re going to create the same issue. So the question is, when are people going to acknowledge this and then get into tangibles? Well, you know, bitcoins up, you know, 30%, 28% their up. I’m thinking the stock market’s gonna go up as well. I think we’ve seen the low, the low we saw in October is holding. And I know that sounds outrageous, but if you look at high, you know, high yield bonds, which is a an essence of junk bond. We’ve maintained higher thresholds since October and moving up. So, people are buying the product. So there’s a lot of bullishness and tangibles and I think when the bank is not a safe hold sort of speak as people think it is. You’re gonna see the market move up on a different emotion, the market and move up because of fear not because of greed. And that’s completely not normal, so to speak.
Bruce Norris  Well, that’s an interesting thing that you just said. So we created a matrix called a Moodometer. But it literally is, what is the group of buyers willing to pay as a percentage for residential as a percentage of their income? So in four times 1980, ’89, ’05, ’06 and 2022 that number represents 60% or more of their gross income, collectively. Now I know you can’t qualify for it, but that that’s the number. Okay. Well, What happens the other time? Well, your peak is only, your peak mood is only there because of competition and excitement. And you’ve got to have one, all of a sudden that disappears. So when it’s on sale and on sale was 2009, instead of 70%, it’s 28%. And it’s so, it’s such, it’s such a bargain price, everybody’s fearful, and we have to pay them $8,000, to bribe them to buy one at a price that’s 60% less than the peak.
Gil Figueroa  Wow.
Bruce Norris  That’s human nature. So okay, so what we’re about to do, and this is, this would be something you could if you could help me, I would like to create for the two spaces that you’re most familiar with the apartments, I’d like to create a moodometer for apartments and how how we would do it is we would play with, so like with the with the Moodometer. For the residential, we have earnings, we have interest rates, and then we have a historical mood and your historical mood. That would be the number of cap rate. That would be a cap rate that we could plug into this and say, Okay, well, if you’re in a mood to pay a 3% cap rate, but interest rates go to seven, and you’re in your top mood, let’s say, then this will be your price stability. But what if your mood is different? The rate is seven, but no longer are you at the three mood, you know, like the cap three cap mood, you’re in a six, we can play with those numbers and determine the damage path of that asset.
Gil Figueroa  That’s very interesting. I’d love to do that.
Bruce Norris  Yeah. Well, you helped me create that. Because i That’s why I called it the Moodometer because it actually it tracks the mood of the participant. And you just said that’s an element. And it is. Absolutely is.
Joey Romero  I have two questions. Gil, in your world, do global threats or global events affect you with here locally? You know, the war, the fear of, you know, us losing the world currency, any of those things? Did any of those things affect you? And then I have another question.
Gil Figueroa  Sure. Well, Joey, that’s a good question. And that’s, that’s somewhat where I’m what I stated that I think values can still go up and the market, the stock market could still go up. And that’s because there’s going to be fear of losing. So people will buy a tangible product, even though maybe not the cap rates, the cash flow will be there, but it’s tangible. And it’ll have a return, right? Or it could have a return in the future. And it always be worth something so to speak.
Bruce Norris  Right.
Gil Figueroa  So I think there’s going to be a turn where people are buying because of fear instead of greed. And that’s what I mentioned earlier and I think that’s where we’re heading. I think we’re seeing it somewhat in the crypto market. You know, the crypto markets been decimated for what a year. And now it’s up 30%. So people aren’t buying crypto because they feel that it’s going to all time highs yet but they’re buying because they fear their money. You know, their sources.
Bruce Norris  Right. It’s a defensive buy, like gold and silver are very high right now. And yeah, same type of thing I can I’m holding it I have a currency, I don’t hold a Bitcoin. That’s the only part that bothers me about Bitcoin. Can I have one? No.
Joey Romero  I’ll send you one, Bruce.
Bruce Norris  Yeah, well, then it’ll be it’ll be harder fiscal.
Joey Romero  So. My other question is, you know, I deal with a lot of the investors and you know, a lot of them have been, you know, single family, you know, small mom and pop, you know, some of them have grown their portfolios, and been very, very successful. And a lot of them, it’s almost like a natural progression for them to go to either commercial or multifamily. How difficult is that transition? And does the leverage help them get there? Or is it harder to get the leverage because of, you know, where they come from?
Gil Figueroa  It’s as far as qualifying lenders look at the same criteria, they look at single family, they’ll look at, you know, net worth, they’ll look at, you know, a debt service and a debt ratio for the client as well. So chances are, if they were buying single family and they have a nice portfolio, they’re going to qualify for multifamily. It’s not a big deal. Now, net worth, I think, is the only one thing that’s different from single family to multifamily. So a lot of lenders have a net worth requirement. So if you’re borrowing a million, they want to make sure you’re worth a million. So that’s probably the only caveat that’s a difference. But qualifying is easier than a four unit because now they can go globally up to 80% debt ratio. You know, basically a 120 debt service is an 80% debt ratio. And we’re single family you’re limited to probably what 40 45%, somewhere in that range. So qualifying for multifamily as a client is easier. Now the asset will determine the loan amount, though. So the net operating income will determine the actual loan amount. So, in essence, if clients were $10 billion, he’s not gonna get an 80% loan to value. If he’s buying a four cap deal, he’s going to have to put 40% down or 45% down. So the acid will determine the loan amount, even though you have a very qualified buyer, very different than one to four unit.
Joey Romero  Do you typically get a lot of people that float in between that world? You know, between the commercial space and the single family? Or is it once they make the move? They’re like, Oh, I love this I’m gonna stick to the commercial.
Gil Figueroa  I mean 90, I’d say high percentage of them that can come into commercial and understand the metrics, right ,management metrics, how to have one building with 32 doors, 40 doors, and be able to maintain it cheaper than having 32 homes separately, right? They don’t have 32 roofs, they don’t have 32 plumbing situations that can go wrong. They only have one right under 1 roof. So when you do the metrics of management, then the math pays for itself and the understanding of the math. So in essence, yes, most of them stayed in the multifamily world. I’ve never seen one regress. How’s that? Not one?
Bruce Norris  That is true. Yeah, that is true. And even people enjoy even people that have 50 or 100 houses don’t usually make the move to apartments. And it’s I think it’s just a math from the beginning, that you’re pursuing a product type.
Joey Romero  And it’s funny you say that Bruce, because, like, I don’t get that question, or I don’t get those that feeling from seasoned, you know, older investors. I get that from the ones that are like new, hey, I’m jumping in, I’m buying. And then, you know, I’m gonna do this for a couple years and then I’m gonna get into commercial I’m gonna get into multifamily.
Bruce Norris  Okay. Yeah, the people that I know, the, like, Tony Alvarez, how many commercial buildings does he have? None. Unless he’s occupying it, he’s basically got fourplexes to single families and tons of them. Mike Cantu on and on the sames that when you think about people that have dominated in industry, in California, and then same with Florida, John Schaub, etc. They have single families, because that’s the product they know. And so the guys that own apartments, that’s that’s a different, you know, a different strategy that we got used to.
Joey Romero  Do you remember, I asked John Schaub about what’s his biggest mistake of his career, and it was getting into that world when he wasn’t ready.
Bruce Norris  Oh, the multi unit. Yeah, that’s right. He did that early on, and had a well, locations kind of important, you know. So that’s, that’s a problem when you have 50% vacant and nobody wants it anyway. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a tough lesson.
Gil Figueroa  It’s a learning curve, you know, you’re getting a different product, you have a different if you ask me, you have a different grading on your client. So a client that can qualify for $3,000 rent, compared to 115, $100. You know, you have a different grading system. So, I would assume you’re great on single families probably a little more stringent as getting the home versus getting an apartment deal, apartment. renter. So, you know, some people are, are more comfortable with that grading. But then again, when you become vacant on a house, how fast can you get it back on the market? There’s another question where an apartment typically has a faster range, just because there’s more people able to afford it.
Bruce Norris  Okay. All right. Well, Gil, thanks. I really appreciate you taking time today. I’ve enjoyed it. And I appreciate your expertise. And I’m going to take a look at that 10 year t-bill chart and hope you’re not right.
Gil Figueroa  And again, that’s not right now, but right now is a great window of opportunity to refinance even though a lot of people don’t understand that that is people are waiting for for you know, 3% treasury, I mean a 2% treasuries to come back. And I think that that’s a very long term way if ever, if ever. So that’s kind of a big statement on my part. I think it’s a great time to refinance right now. And and stabilize yourself and have a game plan. More importantly have a game plan. But Bruce, I’ve always appreciated you. I went to the California dump. I think it was an ’07 or ’08 and I did well listening to you so one of my heroes you know that
Joey Romero  Would have been a better a better title. Bruce the California dump.
Bruce Norris  Yeah, like we would call it the crash but yeah, we should have done we should have done parentheses. Yeah. I’ve got it if not in the context of what we what we have on air but The Japanese economy boomed and then basically languished for 30 years. And they went to zero interest rates and enormous debt, right. So that’s where they’re at right now. They’re like their GDP to debt ratio is way over twice with our country is that type of thing. Why did they choose that route, as opposed to, you know, just having a crash and raising interest rates? And and then starting again, it’s like they went to zero rates and just park there?
Gil Figueroa  Well, I mean, I think that’s, that’s a more appropriate call than crashing, if you can do it, if you can do it. And I that’s my pay rate, why they were allowed to do it on a global scale and still be somewhat, you know, not turned into Greece, right. So that’s, that’s way above my migrate. I don’t know why the Japanese economy could do what they did yet. A country like Greece couldn’t handle that, right, so.
Bruce Norris  Why couldn’t we? I’m just curious, why couldn’t we handle that? We lose, like the world’s currency status?
Gil Figueroa  Well, I mean, you could lose currency status, you can lose grading status, right? We can be a instead of a triple A bond, we could be, you know, double A or even a B bond, right. So we could lose rating status. And, and there’s Japan was never the leader, right. My point is currency. Right. So by us being the leader, there’s a lot of pressure, because number two or three is way down the scale.
Bruce Norris  Right.
Gil Figueroa  See my point. So being the leader, you’re not just you’re not just being graded down to second or third place, you know, you’re, you’ve lost a big threshold and market share.
Bruce Norris  Well, the title of this next report is, What’s next? A lost decade or 1% mortgage rates?
Gil Figueroa  Well, after our fifth wave when we hit a new high on the treasuries, we expect of 60% drop.
Bruce Norris  The 10 year t-bill.
Gil Figueroa  Yep.
Bruce Norris  Which is gets it into the mid ones.
Gil Figueroa  Well, if we’re in the highs… But that could be you know, how many how much time we don’t know. So that’s, that’s the part we don’t we don’t have a handle on yet. I’m looking into how to predict time as well. But that’s a different.
Bruce Norris  Yeah, that’s a monster when you put it nothing like putting California crash on a page on a title of a foreign page report wouldn’t in the middle of a boom. That’s not received well, until until it’s actually come to fruition.
Gil Figueroa  100 percent.
Bruce Norris  Yeah. All right. Well, thanks so much for taking time today.
Gil Figueroa  Thank you, Bruce. I really appreciate it. Thanks.
Bruce Norris  All right. Take care bye.
Narrator  For more information on hard money, loans and upcoming events with The Norris Group, check out thenorrisgroup.com. For information on passive investing with trust deeds, visit tngtrustdeeds.com.
Aaron Norris  The Norris Group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE License 01219911, Florida Mortgage Lender License 1577, and NMLS License 1623669. For more information on hard money lending, go www.thenorrisgroup.com and click the Hard Money tab.